On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:57:00 EST, Judy Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The last couple of days, members of the list have had their messages returned
> saying "too many hops".  They have been resending them to the group even
> though they in fact got through.

The problem is that the messages "got through" to *SOME*, not *ALL*,
subscribers.

> Now, they want *me* to tell them what's going wrong!  I just run the list -
> I can't explain the tech stuff.  Can anyone let me know what's happening?

The "hop-count" is the number of 'Received' lines in a message.
It has only a slight correlation with IP-routing and IP-traffic.

If a "hop-count" is "too-high", then a copy of your member's message
will not be distributed to one (or more) subscribers.  Note that *MOST*
of your subscribers will have received the message; it's only an unfortunate
few subscribers who don't receive a distributed message.  Note that the list-
owner should receive the "non-delivery" message, but sometimes the message
is "bounced" to the ID of the author of the message.  Sigh!

Let's look at an example.

Note that the "newest" 'Received' lines appear at the "top" of the message.
Therefore, continue reading at the "bottom" of this example.
+++
+ Return-Path: <[log in to unmask]>

6.  You can notice that the "hop-count" includes the "hops"
    between the person who posted the message and the LISTSERV system,
    and also includes the "hops" between LISTSERV and the specific
    subscriber's destination.

    If a subscriber to HELP-NET has used the 'SET HELP-NET SHORTHDR' option,
    then LISTSERV will remove the information about the "incoming-hops"
    from the copy of the message which is sent to that specific subscriber,
    and only the "outgoing-hops" information will be included. Using this
    'SET' command is the way to *REDUCE* the "hop-count" for a particular
    subscriber.  The list-owner can issue this command on behalf of all
    the subscribers.

    Obviously, a systes which "receives" a piece of E-mail should check
    the "hop-count", in order to detect a "loop", i.e.,
    'ERIC@hostA' has "forwarded" his E-mail to 'ERIC@hostB', and
    'ERIC@hostB' has "forwarded" his E-mail to 'ERIC@hostA',
    then you have an infinite loop, which can be stopped only by
    calculating the "hop-count", and refusing to "forward"
    after some arbitrary number of "hops", e.g., '30'.

    Given the increasing popularity of desktop-machines, firewall machines,
    and SMTP-server machines, "hop-counts" are increasing, as networking
    makes the environment more complex.  Sigh.

+ Received: from UVVM.UVIC.CA (NJE origin LISTSERV@UVVM) by UVVM.UVIC.CA (LMail
+           V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9377; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:16:31 -0800

5. LISTSERV distributed the message to all the subscribers of HELP-NET,
   and asked 'LISTSERV@UVVM' to participate in the distribution.
   So, 'LISTSERV@UVVM' sent the message to the MAILER at UVVM.

+ Received: from VM.TEMPLE.EDU by VM.TEMPLE.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with
+       NJE id 0471 for [log in to unmask]; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:39:33 -0500

4. The LISTSERV system at TEMPLE received the message from the MAILER at
   TEMPLE.  (LISTSERV stole the E-mail from the queue for the ID 'HELP-NET'.)

+ Received: from TEMPLEVM (NJE origin SMTPI2@TEMPLEVM) by VM.TEMPLE.EDU (LMail
+           V1.2b/1.8b) with BSMTP id 8966; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:39:33 -0500

3. The SMTP-server at TEMPLE sent the message to the MAILER at TEMPLE,
   for delivery to the ID 'HELP-NET'.

+ Received: from zucchetti.it by VM.TEMPLE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP;
+           Wed, 26 Feb 97 17:39:32 EST

2. The host 'VM.TEMPLE.EDU' received the message from 'MAIL.ZUCCHETTI.IT',
   for delivery to the 'HELP-NET' mailing-list.

+ Received: from mail.zucchetti.it (mail.zucchetti.it [193.76.224.4]) by
+           zucchetti.it (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA19918 for
+           <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:37:39 +0100
+ Received: from [195.45.4.95] ([195.45.4.95]) by mail.zucchetti.it
+       (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA27736 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed,
+           26 Feb 1997 23:39:58 +0100

1. The host at '195.45.4.95' sent the following message to 'MAIL.ZUCCHETTI.IT',
   asking this host to deliver the E-mail to [log in to unmask]

+ X-Authentication-Warning: mail.zucchetti.it: Host [195.45.4.95] didn't use
+    HELO protocol
+ X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
+ X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
+ Mime-Version: 1.0
+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
+ Message-ID:  <[log in to unmask]>
+ Date:         Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:39:58 +0100
+ Reply-To:     Bitnet/Internet Help Resource <[log in to unmask]>
+ Sender:       Bitnet/Internet Help Resource <[log in to unmask]>
+ From:         Yasha Shammah <[log in to unmask]>
+ Subject:      Re: Public Access discussing groups for Netscape
+ To:           Multiple recipients of list HELP-NET <[log in to unmask]>
+
+ At 15.52 25/02/97 -0800, Stephen Lo wrote:
+ >I know that there are public accessable discussing groups (or news
+ >groups) about Netscape in the web server of Netscape.com (home.
+ >netscape.com).
+
+ Try http://help.netscape.com/nuggies/
+
+ Yasha Shammah
+ [log in to unmask]