Welcome to Listserv Town!
                 A service of Remarq.com

Jane, thanks for bringing this Remarq development to attention. Like
others, my list's name and description has shown up in Remarq's
collection as well.  Currently, the listing for my service shows zero
subscribers and zero messages, and their new subscription request
script does not work, so nothing has been compromised...yet.

Nonetheless, I find this whole situation cause for concern.  Due to
some past issues, I operate my list as by-owner and private, with
specific copyright declarations, and my list policy prohibits any
redistribution of any content without permission.

I find it distressing - the prospect that a user, being attracted to a
particular "Remarq" list service, could subscribe to "their" list and
in doing so, unwittingly expose private list correspondence and
archives to the public.

Unlike Francoise, I'm more than just a bit miffed, and I hope his view
does not represent LSoft's official position.  It appears Remarq.com
has gone out and harvested our List names and descriptions, and added
them to their "service".  They somehow procured my list information,
even though it has been Confidential=Yes for over three years.  It
would seem there's more going on here than just pillaging public LSoft
Catalist directories.

Incidently folks, *LSTOWN-L* is listed there too!  In this case, it
would seem their harvesting is not without human intervention though.
They listed the full name for LSTOWN-L as "Listserv Town".  Sheeesh......

It looks like Remarq is a front end interface to Usenet and Listserv
groups.  In Remarq's documentation, no credit is given to the actual
sources of the material, the real list owners and their efforts and
objectives in providing their list services.  There are no references
or links to list INFO files, list policy guidelines, or any other
materials many list owners provide as information and/or required
reading.

Remarq's presentation would lead most casual users to believe all this
wonderful material comes from Remarq.com.  It is not even clear if
they actually do store and serve their own copies of usenet and
listserv material from their own systems.  I've done a lot digging
through what Remarq has published without finding a clear answer.

As Francoise noted, they've apparently worked up some scripts to
automatically handle confirmation transactions with Listserv.  For all
we know (and there is nothing I found to the contrary), it is possible
Remarq may be attempting to act as a front end (as in facade) to our
own archive files on our own servers.

Interesting business model actually..... You put some computers online
with some creative packaging, tap into resources and assets developed
and maintained by others (i.e. your list, your subscribers, and your
intellectual property and your archives).... then repackage and
distribute these assets for your own commercial interests, while
presenting the material and service as your own....  and all at
virtually no cost for the very product you are distributing.

Please forgive the incipient rant..... but many List Owners have
invested considerable time, effort and money in developing and
providing their list services.  I find it offensive - the prospect of
some third party taking the fruits of these efforts and the
well-intentioned contributions of a list's subscribers, them
repackaging this material for their own profit.


Francoise wrote:
> Well, at least they aren't rebroadcasting my private archives
> publicly.

Thus far, anyway....  Do you have additional information that
demonstrates how rebroadcasting is not possible?


> well -- it kept timing out and I couldn't get subscribed that way. The
> LISTSERV log showed no sign of a subscription attempt.

... for today, that is.  Broken scripts can be fixed.  I wouldn't be
so inclined to dismiss this as a nonissue.


> So, it looks like if you keep your archives private and you require
> confirmation for subscriptions, you've effectively protected your list
> from this site.

Please elaborate on your basis for this conclusion, Francoise.  Has
anyone actually seen a sub request from Remarq?  With their currently
broken script, I suspect not.

How will a list owner recognize a sub request relayed by Remarq.com?
What distinguishes a remarq sub request from all the other normal subs
we process?

Does their relayed request actually indicate it comes From:
remarq.com?  Pete had a good suggestion for filtering, but that
assumes a great deal about what they actually are/will be sending us.


> Even if it worked, it seems like it's more along the
> lines of a hotmail.com address -- an anonymizer rather than an
> archiver.

Again, please help ease concerns by explaining the basis and facts
supporting your statement.  Yes, Hotmail, Mailexcite, Juno, etc. can
indeed be used as anonymizers.  We all have subscribers using these
services.  It is not clear how this relates to the topic at hand.

Whether a subscriber originates from a system/mailer that provides
true identity information, or from a third-party service that conceals
the true source, is largely irrelevant.  What *does* matter is what
happens to material sent to a subscriber address and how it is
treated upon arrival.

Whether a subscriber uses his individual mailbox from his ISP, an
account on hotmail, excite, juno, etc....  These are all personal,
private email destinations, readable only by the owner and anyone he
chooses to share his access with.  This is "business as usual" for any
list owner, and completely manageable and within the List Owner's span
of control.  It is clear what happens to the material the list sends
to these subscribed addresses.

OTOH, regarding Remarq.... so far it is not clear where material from
private Listserv lists and list owners would end up, nor how it would
be handled at the Remarq receiving end.  Looking at what Remarq is
doing with Usenet and public Listserv material and what they already
have online, we have some good indications of what is possible.


Regards,
Roland