I have been receiving similar distribute problems the last weeks, and hope anyone can fix this. I would really hate to have my mail shipped to other people instead of to me... I don't know, nor have I investigated, which listserv is causing this, but I suspect... ------------------ original message follows ------------------ | |Received: from HEARN.BITNET by HDETUD1.TUDELFT.NL (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id | 0098; Tue, 07 Aug 90 01:24:30 MET |Received: from HEARN by HEARN.BITNET (Mailer R2.03B) with BSMTP id 4440; Tue, | 07 Aug 90 01:24:28 MET |Reply-To: VM/XA Discussion List <VMXA-L@DEARN> |Sender: VM/XA Discussion List <VMXA-L@DEARN> |From: "Bryan, Jerry" <BRYAN@WVNVM> |Subject: Open Systems |In-Reply-To: Message of 08/04/90 at 12:44:50 from [log in to unmask] |Date: Tue, 7 Aug 1990 01:23:07 MET |To: Multiple recipients of <VMXA-L@DEARN> | | |>I wonder how much of the following might also be said of IBM, with |>VAX/VMS changed to VM or MVS? |> Lee Varian |> Princeton University | |>(c) 1990, CMP Publications, Inc.; Communications Week, 7/30/90, p. 2: | |> DEC: First Loss |> by Anne Knowles | |>Boston -- Last Week, Digital Equipment Corp. finally saw red. For the |>first time in its 33-year history, the computer giant reported a loss. |> ... |>DEC's [senior vice president of operations John] Smith blamed an economic |>slowdown in both the United States and other markets for the poor fourth- |>quarter showing. But some analysts said the economy is not what is ailing |>DEC. Robert Herwick, an analyst who tracks DEC for Hambrecht & Quist Inc., |>San Francisco, said he is pessimistic about DEC's long-term outlook. He |>feels the company is not paying attention to the shift to open systems. |>"The world doesn't want VAX/VMS systems anymore," he said. "The company |>is kidding itself." | |I am not sure what my opinions have to do with anything, including |VMXA-L, but here goes anyway. | | 1. VAX/VMS is dead. It may take 10 or 15 or 20 years to fully expire, | but it will be subsumed into UNIX. DEC could be in real trouble | in this environment, or it could flourish, depending on how smart | the company is. | | 2. CMS is in real trouble for the same reason. It might last longer | than VMS because it is more different from UNIX than VMS is, and | because of its ties to CP and because it can do things like run | CICS. | | 3. CP is here for a long time, but will grow closer and closer to the | hardware (cf. Amdahl's MDF and IBM's LPAR), or as an alternative | interpretation, hardware will get smarter and will look more and | more like CP. | | 4. MVS is in less trouble than CMS and VMS. Notwithstanding all the | various moves away from batch, you don't run your payroll interactively. | Many applications are inherently batch. In addition, UNIX is a long | way from being able to handle things like CICS, DB2, large tape | libraries, large disk farms (where is SMS for UNIX?), etc. | | 5. The RS/6000 is a big winner for IBM. SUN has real problems, as does | DEC's Ultrix. | | 6. Things like AIX on an RS/6000 frontending AIX on a 3090-vector processor | will be a big winner. However, you have to question whether the 3090 | is really necessary in many cases because the native capabilities of | the RS/6000 are so good. | | 7. DOS on a PC is dead. It may take five to ten years to expire, but | OS/2 really won the day it was announced. In the short run of | two or three or five years, there is still a lot of | money to be made by companies selling DOS products, and a lot of | money to be lost by companies selling OS/2 products, but we need | to take a more Japanese type long view of things to see what is going | on here. | | 8. OS/2 and UNIX will become indistinguishable, both to end users and | to developers. It will not be the case that one or the other wins; | it will be the case that their functionality will merge. | The underlying code will not merge, but the interfaces will be | compatible so that both users and applications can be ported | easily from one environment to the other. | | 9. IBM is in a much better position to survive all this than DEC | because they are much more committed to getting a piece of the | UNIX market than is DEC. DEC still sincerely believes that VMS can | co-exist with, or even beat, UNIX. | |a. Standard disclaimer applies | |b. Additional non-standard disclaimer -- I have tried and tried to | like UNIX, but I hate it. It is awful. I grew up with MVT and MVS, | then CP and CMS, and I am also halfway decent with VMS, and I like | all of them. Nevertheless, I think UNIX is winning and will win. | | 3. CP is here for a long time, but will grow closer and closer to the | hardware (cf. Amdahl's MDF and IBM's LPAR), or as an alternative | interpretation, hardware will get smarter and will look more and | more like CP. | | 4. MVS is in less trouble than CMS and VMS. Notwithstanding all the | various moves away from batch, you don't run your payroll interactively. | Many applications are inherently batch. In addition, UNIX is a long | way from being able to handle things like CICS, DB2, large tape | libraries, large disk farms (where is SMS for UNIX?), etc. | | 5. The RS/6000 is a big winner for IBM. SUN has real problems, as does | DEC's Ultrix. | | 6. Things like AIX on an RS/6000 frontending AIX on a 3090-vector processor | will be a big winner. However, you have to question whether the 3090 | is really necessary in many cases because the native capabilities of | the RS/6000 are so good. | | 7. DOS on a PC is dead. It may take five to ten years to expire, but | OS/2 really won the day it was announced. In the short run of | two or three or five years, there is still a lot of | money to be made by companies selling DOS products, and a lot of | money to be lost by companies selling OS/2 products, but we need | to take a more Japanese type long view of things to see what is going | on here. | | 8. OS/2 and UNIX will become indistinguishable, both to end users and | to developers. It will not be the case that one or the other wins; | it will be the case that their functionality will merge. | The underlying code will not merge, but the interfaces will be | compatible so that both users and applications can be ported |//VMXA-L JOB Echo=No,Reply-to="MABOGEN@DEARN HAROLD@UGA" |//To DD * |SACCVVDE HASARA11 Vincent van den Elzen |SSCP0003 HASARA11 frank goossens |SSCP0006 HASARA11 Paul Wielinga SARA Amsterdam NL |SSCP0010 HASARA11 Victor Marchand |SSCP0014 HASARA11 Rob v.d. Wal |SSCP0055 HASARA11 Marieke Tiecke |SSCP0059 HASARA11 Jules Wolfrat |RCCSJVA HDETUD1 Jana Vasiljev |RCOPMRL HDETUD1 Milton Russel |RCOPROB HDETUD1 Rob van Hoboken |U001210 HNYKUN11 Peter Gotwalt |/* |// DIST2 MAIL FROM=BRYAN@WVNVM I=Y FORW(VIA) HOST(36 36 36 36 36 36 36 36 36 36 |//+ 36) |//Via DD "DEARN CEARN FRULM11" |//Data DD *,EOF,Res=Disk |Date: Mon, 6 Aug 90 09:56:35 EDT |Reply-To: VM/XA Discussion List <VMXA-L@DEARN> |Sender: VM/XA Discussion List <VMXA-L@DEARN> |From: "Bryan, Jerry" <BRYAN@WVNVM> |Subject: Open Systems |To: |In-Reply-To: Message of 08/04/90 at 12:44:50 from [log in to unmask] | |>I wonder how much of the following might also be said of IBM, with |>VAX/VMS changed to VM or MVS? |> Lee Varian |> Princeton University | |>(c) 1990, CMP Publications, Inc.; Communications Week, 7/30/90, p. 2: | |> DEC: First Loss |> by Anne Knowles | |>Boston -- Last Week, Digital Equipment Corp. finally saw red. For the |>first time in its 33-year history, the computer giant reported a loss. |> ... |>DEC's [senior vice president of operations John] Smith blamed an economic |>slowdown in both the United States and other markets for the poor fourth- |>quarter showing. But some analysts said the economy is not what is ailing |>DEC. Robert Herwick, an analyst who tracks DEC for Hambrecht & Quist Inc., |>San Francisco, said he is pessimistic about DEC's long-term outlook. He |>feels the company is not paying attention to the shift to open systems. |>"The world doesn't want VAX/VMS systems anymore," he said. "The company |>is kidding itself." | |I am not sure what my opinions have to do with anything, including |VMXA-L, but here goes anyway. | | 1. VAX/VMS is dead. It may take 10 or 15 or 20 years to fully expire, | but it will be subsumed into UNIX. DEC could be in real trouble | in this environment, or it could flourish, depending on how smart | the company is. | | 2. CMS is in real trouble for the same reason. It might last longer | than VMS because it is more different from UNIX than VMS is, and | because of its ties to CP and because it can do things like run | CICS. | | 3. CP is here for a long time, but will grow closer and closer to the | hardware (cf. Amdahl's MDF and IBM's LPAR), or as an alternative | interpretation, hardware will get smarter and will look more and | more like CP. | | 4. MVS is in less trouble than CMS and VMS. Notwithstanding all the | various moves away from batch, you don't run your payroll interactively. | Many applications are inherently batch. In addition, UNIX is a long | way from being able to handle things like CICS, DB2, large tape | libraries, large disk farms (where is SMS for UNIX?), etc. | | 5. The RS/6000 is a big winner for IBM. SUN has real problems, as does | DEC's Ultrix. | | 6. Things like AIX on an RS/6000 frontending AIX on a 3090-vector processor | will be a big winner. However, you have to question whether the 3090 | is really necessary in many cases because the native capabilities of | the RS/6000 are so good. | | 7. DOS on a PC is dead. It may take five to ten years to expire, but | OS/2 really won the day it was announced. In the short run of | two or three or five years, there is still a lot of | money to be made by companies selling DOS products, and a lot of | money to be lost by companies selling OS/2 products, but we need | to take a more Japanese type long view of things to see what is going | on here. | | 8. OS/2 and UNIX will become indistinguishable, both to end users and | to developers. It will not be the case that one or the other wins; | it will be the case that their functionality will merge. | The underlying code will not merge, but the interfaces will be | compatible so that both users and applications can be ported | easily from one environment to the other. | | 9. IBM is in a much better position to survive all this than DEC | because they are much more committed to getting a piece of the | UNIX market than is DEC. DEC still sincerely believes that VMS can | co-exist with, or even beat, UNIX. | |a. Standard disclaimer applies | |b. Additional non-standard disclaimer -- I have tried and tried to | like UNIX, but I hate it. It is awful. I grew up with MVT and MVS, | then CP and CMS, and I am also halfway decent with VMS, and I like | all of them. Nevertheless, I think UNIX is winning and will win. |