I still read mail with RDRLIST and I somehow managed to confuse this message with a bug report I didn't find time to look into until today. Sorry for the late reply. On Mon, 13 Dec 1993 18:02:43 EST David Nessl <[log in to unmask]> said: >Since none of the original conditions that justified BITNET now exist, >I've got to wonder do we still need it? From a cost-benefit perspective, >why pay both CREN dues and a LISTSERV license when I could be paying for >just a LISTSERV license? Actually, this very problem is one of the reasons it took so long to get an agreement with CREN. L-Soft's goal was to sell software and services at a lower rate through volume discount arrangements that solve the annoying "spring budget" problem, letting US academic sites have access to the software right now rather than this summer. The idea of not having to send 161 copies of custom-selected federal certificates to guarantee we don't make experiments on live animals and don't discriminate against war veterans is also appealing. But setting aside the little details, all we wanted to do is a volume sale. It is unfortunate that CREN is having problems keeping its members, but that isn't L-Soft's fault. Through this discounted sale we hoped to help CREN enough that they would feel they are getting something for their effort and money. Furthermore if CREN becomes a large customer there is no reason why L-Soft wouldn't help it to a reasonable extent. The problem is that CREN and L-Soft didn't agree on the definition of "reasonable". We think "reasonable" means that new CREN members can get the CREN discount on a prorated license getting them in synch with the main CREN contract, which they can later join - that sort of things. CREN thought the adjective included things such as a free license for LISTSERV-TCP/IP. While this would clearly help them retain their membership, it would be like letting CREN sell LISTSERV to the US academic community and keep the profits, which is not very different from the "before L-Soft" situation when you think about it. Anyway, I think it is important not to confuse CREN and NJE technology in this debate. NJE technology still has its uses, especially in third world and eastern countries where people simply can't afford a 64k line (in some countries, the PTT can't *deliver* a 64k line because the infrastructures are not yet present). NJE is very cheap, both for the individual sites and for the organizations providing the tables and coordination. EARN runs on a budget of around $600-700k (don't know the current ECU exchange rate), and for that price they provide all sorts of other services, and in particular documentation and assistance to third world and eastern countries. Granted, there are a lot more NJE sites in the US, but I'm sure that with say $750k one could provide a top-notch NJE service, including centrally managed INTERBIT gateways, full-time staff to answer technical queries, well-maintained information services (gopher and the like), and there would even be some money left to make a profit. The only thing not included in this scenario is the purchase of a mainframe, as this alone could cost more than $750k, but I'm sure cycles can be obtained at a reasonable rate or even for free (in exchange for free membership or some other token contribution). There are around 500 CREN members so NJE doesn't need to cost more than $1500/year for each site, and if it includes a helpdesk it becomes a piece of cake to sell it to your management (barring political or religious problems). Another reason to dissociate CREN from NJE is that CREN's stated intent is to move away from NJE. While they will probably provide this service for as long as there are customers, CREN's strategy does not rely on NJE and they shouldn't be judged on NJE, but on the new services mentioned in the brochure (not including LISTSERV, which wouldn't have been mentioned if they had asked L-Soft for permission to take credit for what is not theirs, but that's another story). To conclude, I think that the futures of LISTSERV, NJE and CREN are three separate issues, even though there are clear ties at the moment. LISTSERV will go on with or without NJE, but preferrably with. NJE will go on for as long as there are people interested in that technology. If for any reason CREN were to decide to "dump" NJE, I'm sure another organization will pick up the service (although CREN holds a monopoly on NJE at this time, being a non-profit organization they would have to open the monopoly if they decided not to offer the service any longer). NJE users need not worry that the service will be killed from the inside. Finally, CREN will go on with or without LISTSERV and NJE, adjusting its offering to what it perceives to be the new needs of the community it represents. Its continued survival will depend on the success of these new services, and not on NJE. Eric