I apologize to Pete and to everyone else for misreading what Pete actually wrote. There is no allowable excuse for my misreading. I will observe, though, that I have encountered more than one list where not only header listed owners were permanently out-to-lunch but also the host site administrators, which means owner-listserv won't work either. You hit a brick wall, no one will answer, no one will do anything, doesn't matter. Admittedly, I haven't run into one of these for a couple of years, and the ones I encountered were clearly sites which installed the EARN/BITNET package and figured it could take care of itself indefinitely once the lists were installed, if not, well, they didn't realy care. Again, I beg pardon of Pete and all else for my misreading. Actually I rather wish I had included the little note which I forgot, which was to have suggested that owner-LISTSERV might be more appropriate. When one makes a fool of oneself there may be solace in the thought that at least one did a truly thorough job of it. Douglas