there is nothin in them, so it is safe to re-institute the prod ptflib. btw - i further verified that the rhdcmt00 fix was the problem by goinf to a test region that still (in memory) contained all fixes (the signon was still broken); newcopied rhdcmt00 (to get rid of the fix), and then the signon worked - so there you have it! Chris Hoelscher IDMS Software Support Sophisticated Business Systems Dallas Texas On Assignment to IBM Global Services Outsourcers for GE Capital Cooporation (972)-561-6406