[log in to unmask] <Ken>
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                                                            28.Feb.1995
 
> 1. Can I get into a list and out in an instant? E.g., I often "poke
> around" in lists that I don't normally subscribe to (either subscribing
> first, or not, depending on whether the list is OPEN), to find some
> specific thing I need. How would the charging mechanism be implemented
> for supporting this not uncommon list behavior? I wouldn't want to have
> to wait until someone did a credit check on me first; or, be charged a
> signup and first month's fee for example. There'd have to be some
> really simple mechanism.
 
Indeed - this would be a problem.  [log in to unmask]
(the list I "own") often has a middle school class doing a project
on the Internet, a university student with a specific project or
question, or an estranged parent curious about his/her rights and
charging for the list would cause problems.
 
I have more ideas on that in a minute...
 
> 2. If I thought for a moment that charging would seriously affect the
> dynamics of peoples' behavior towards _setting up_ lists, e.g., oh,
> geez, now I have to worry about billing, or about negotiating with the
> service provider in very legal ways; toward _using_ lists, e.g., let's
> experiment and see where things go (many people don't think they can
> afford to experiment; I think the biases brought by the constraint of
> "unaffordability" is significant), I would be very concerned about the
> effects of direct user charging on all sorts of user behavior.
 
I have a nifty example.  A friend of mine started up a list and wants
to charge for it, partially to offset his cost to his provider, and
also for profit, so that he can quit his part time job.  I warned him
that there would be serious problems when he mentions it - not that
Internet people are "notoriously cheap" - but that people are used to
getting things for free on the Internet, and that you'd better look
REALLY professional and have credentials to back you up before charging.
 
He also would have to get up a business license here in the USA - at minimum,
$30 to look in the local "book of business names" and register the name
of the business - but also he would be dealing with International clients,
which can cause other problems.
 
I wish him luck - his list has to do with a kind of counseling, building
one's sense of self up, and things like that.  He's not a professional
counselor, but a student in a Master's program.  While running a list
of this sort is a wonderful idea, even to charge in a non-profit manner,
but to charge for profit, there's more to it than it seems at first
to a non-business-oriented person.  It would take merely one
disgruntled member of the list to cause a LOT of trouble.
 
> 3. The use of discussion list technology is just in its infancy (even
> though you and I have been using it since its beginnings, and email
> before that, and networks before that, and ...). The level of
> discovery, of awareness raising, of experimentation, is enormous, still
> accelerating, and still with fantastic payoffs for those who only now
> are buying into the use of it. Now, paying as you go is a reality of
> life --I accept that.  But, the mechanisms by which We pay are many. I
> urge caution with respect to mechanism --to not destroy the beast, at
> least before We know what it is.
 
One of the things I like to say on Y-RIGHTS is that computers programs
like LISTSERV are children right now.  They are complex, respond well
when treated exactly as they want to be treated.  *But* - parse a
command incorrectly and either nothing will happen, or something will
happen that you never would expect.  LISTSERV, just like children,
generally deal well with each other, but all it takes is a few adults
(humans in the case of LISTSERV) to screw up the works and cause
massive confusion.
 
LISTSERV is like a 5 year old boy:
        * Communicates correctly 90% of the time
        * Angers quickly when treated poorly
        * Gives up easily when treated poorly
        * Knows what is expected of him
        * Isn't certain how to deal with a lot of things
        * Is exceedingly complex
        * Appears simple at the surface
        * Takes some time to tweak and behave as you wish him to
        * Does what he wants to anyway, much of the time
        * The world can't live without him, for therein lies the future
 
 
 
> Of course, the direct-pay mechanism is itself a dimension that should be
> explored. So, I guess my bottom line is, sure-- experiment with charging.
> But, let's not allow the lure of this particular form of entreprenership
> to overcome the larger experiment which has yet to be played out (and
> won't be for some years).
 
I like an idea of *donations*.  When you provide something that people
truly value, they like to give out of their heart.  People can be far more
generous than they seem at times.  You can even use a little "guilt" factor
such as: "My money is running short, and I've having trouble making the
payments to continue this list.  Would you be willing to contibute something
to help keep LIST_XYZ going?"
 
--
Kenneth Udut                                          [log in to unmask]
Listowner of [log in to unmask] - discussion on the rights of kids/teens
Maintainer of _The Guide to Online Resources for Youth and Youth Workers_