At 02:24 PM 8/8/1997 CDT, Listserv Manager wrote:
>Sorry Dan, but you're just not right.
>  a) alot of spammers don't even bother if they see that the group is
>     moderated
>  b) The Filter keyword takes out alot of the spams without even the
>     group's moderators from seeing it

Agree with you in part.  But considering the number of moderated
newsgroups, and ones in the big 7, that DO get spammed, I still see it as a
considerable problem.  Especially so in Mary's case, as I'll describe.
She's sent me added info that I'll vaguely refer to, and I trust without
breaking any confidences.

>This isn't just guessing here.  *I* run 2 Usenet groups in a mainstream
>hierachy (rec.hunting & rec.hunting.dogs) that are moderated by Listserv
>lists.  Compared to most unmoderated groups, the spamming in those
>groups is virtually non-existant.  It really does provide for the best
>of both worlds.  Of course, as the owner, when a spam does show up, I
>tend to be rather agressive in attacking it (just look at the Filter
>list that those lists share).  And once I get the procmail script called
>from the EXIT working, it'll be even better....

Sounds good.  But I don't think that she has the ability to do that (in
terms of time) and certainly not in terms of software knowledge.  Just not
her thing.

>>Doing that doesn't get it moderated.  Usenet spoofing of moderator approval
>>is laughably simple, and much spam already shows that "approval" on Usenet.
>> Yes, you can easily keep it from getting back to your listserv users.
>
>True.  But since most Listserv lists are also Public, we haven't really
>lost anything, have we?

Yes, you have.  On LISTSERV most of us have editor=editor@site, (listname),
which almost completely eliminates spammers when used with confirmation on
subscription.  It just isn't reasonable for the vast majority of the
spammers to sub, confirm, spam, unsub.  Yes, I'm sure that one of the
spammers is writing a procedure to do exactly that as I type, but I've not
seen it, or the results of it, yet.  If and when it happens, I guess Eric
and listowners will have to deal with it then.

>Dan is right here.  This is not a Listserv problem, since Listserv
>already has the ability to insert a Newsgroups: tag.  It's a
>"configuring INN problem".  The *right* place to look for a solution
>is amoung the group of news adminstrators, not list administrators.

And those are the techies that I hoped she'd be able to work with.  From
personal email it appears for various good and sufficient reasons she
probably can't do that.  Although if someone WOULD provide her a gateway
and help her setup an alt.x.y.z for her topic, it would be a very kind
gesture to some people with serious health problems who can't get out and
do that themselves.  Unfortunately, I don't have the skills in that area
(or at least the time to learn them), and our site is so overloaded already
that I'm already concerned about list cutting.  We're already on more or
less "prime time" limitations here at idbsu.idbsu.edu, where I'm asst PM
and techie librarian.  (this is being sent from my personal domain account,
however)

>Correct.  Which is exactly why I adviced going through the tourtous
>RFD and CFV process to create the group in one of the big 7.

From private conversations with Mary, I don't think she'll be able to do
that.  Partly because of the medical problems she and her listmembers have.
 Partly for a bigger reason....politics.  There already ARE five newsgroups
(or more) on the topic.  But politics has gotten involved, and
personalities.  So "Mary's group" is not allowed to post to the existing
five moderated groups.  I've no idea about the right or wrong of this, and
wouldn't get involved.  But the point is that there is a group who will do
all they can to keep another group from being formed.  That almost
guarantees Mary's requests to be doomed in the big seven creation process.

>I agree with your answer, but not your reason.  The primary reason is
>no doubt that both groups (Listserv bigots and Usenet bigots) tend to
>ignore the other, citing make believe problems with the other's model.

Understand that.  I use both.  I lean towards LISTSERV since that is what I
do.  But there are MANY groups I follow on Usenet due to the advantages
thereof.  Just depends on which tool is the right one for which job.

>The truth is, both are useful in differnet types of situations and to
>different personal preferences.  If it weren't so, usage of BOTH would
>not have experienced the huge growth over the last 5-10 years.

Absolutely.  I don't expect either one to go away in the next long time,
barring some "new thing" popping up like the web did...and it didn't
threaten either one, it brought more in to both.  Not that I can imagine
what the new thing would be that would blow away both newsgroups and
lists....if I did, I'd go find a patent attorney this afternoon.  o-)   I'd
LIKE to retire early.

>To answer Mary Schweitzer's primary question, I believe your best bet
>will be with the author's of INN or other *major* news _server_
>programs.

Makes perfect sense to me.  I hope that some of the ideas that have been
tossed around on the list will help her.  I'm fully aware of her health
issues, and why they make so many things difficult for her.

cheers to all

dan

Dan Lester
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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.  Erasmus, 1534